Another overly long chat with Bill, on some of the aspects of the latest GTA iteration:

Dib
i guess claptrap posters have to pick a game of the year

Bill
my played library is pretty weak
for my money it'd have to be LBP

Dib
not sure what i'll go with
buy fewer games this year than before
gta didn't live up to hype
fable 2 was fun
mass effect
need to play fallout 3

Bill
GTA does make a strong contribution to the literature on how gameplay control should work for a hybrid third/first person game

Dib
true
but that doesn't put it in game of teh year land

Bill
true.
that puts it on a "most influential" list, several years hence.
if it turns out to be.

Dib
doesn't that apply to every game?

Bill
as worded, yes.

Dib
you didn't have to think about the control much
but the game was lacking

Bill
i still haven't finished it
but i agree, it was lacking something.

Dib
i want to try saints row 2
it sounds like they went for the over the top fun style
instead to the realistic world of gta 4

Bill
maybe that's what it was... lacked some of the levity
had plenty of comedy, just not enough levity.

Dib
posted about one of my issues with gta at some site:
Funny you mentioned GTA IV, because I think it is one of those games that no longer rewards “failure”. It’s slightly different than the version of failure you discuss here, but in GTA III, when you failed on a mission, you could use that knowledge to set up your next attempt. One of the most fun aspects of that game was reading how different people came up with such varying solutions to the game’s missions, each one as viable as the next. Reading these made you think “well, duh!” often, but that didn’t make your solution any less “right”. In GTA IV, they took those opportunities away from the player. You had to play the mission from within THEIR parameters now; anything outside of them, that the player might have set up, was discarded, usually after the required cutscene. That fun aspect of playing with the game world in a way it wasn’t necessarily set up for, much like the jeep-less journey, can truly elevate a gamer’s experience.

Bill
They sacrificed player freedom for narrative control, sounds like you're saying.

Dib
well, maybe
you have to complete a mission to move to the next mission
so it really shouldn't matter how you complete it
but either way, you do HAVE to
in 4, they said you have to do this, and you have to do it within these parameters
in 3 they said here, do this, we dont care how

Bill
right
so i wonder how you can get the best of both worlds:

Dib
so a few of the missions were frustrating, as i just needed to get by them

Bill
for pacing reasons a lot of story is given while in a car with a specific character, going to a specific place.
a hands-free device for Niko's cell phone? :)

Dib
they did use a defined mission structure to further the story
where they didnt do taht as much before
just a cutscene before you began

Bill
right.

Dib
but by the 10th time i had to chase down that asshole on the motorcycle, i was getting over it all

Bil
lbut what if you could switch to "hand-free" and put the cell-phone away, resuming complete control of the character but while still having a conversation with someone.

Dib
then you might miss the important story details they were trying to impart
maybe they just thought too much of their story, and not enough about the player

Bill
perhaps...

Dib
they obviously wanted to tell an emotional tale about a torn individual
and nothing was going to get in the way of that
and in that thinking, if the player wants to have "fun", they can do wahtever they want during the rest of the game
but if they are doing a story mission, they are on our turf
and play by our rules
of course, that opens a whole other peeve of mine with the game
being the inconsistancy of nico: man who wants to change, and obviously has a conscience, vs. man who drives down a sidewalk and screams at pedesrtians as he sends them flying
but that's probably a topic for another day

Bill
Heh

Dib
tommy vercetti didn't have those inner demons

Bill
oo true.
At the same time, I would still buy and play any GTA main title.

Dib
agreed
just think they went in a new direction and i wasn't ready for the turn

Bill
I still really like the game. But playing it, there is something lacking, definitely.
There's not the same unmitigated "delight", really.
And maybe the things you mention are the reason for that...

Dib
also, it's just not a new experience anymore
gta 3 was
there was nothing like it prior
gta 4 was the 4th attempt at a similar style
you have done it before

Bill
There is always that.
True.